To Hell and Back

I’m very intrigued by this post and this guy’s story.   He has book out, which I will be reading.  Lyndon has commented on one of my posts so I have been checking out his blog.  I appreciate his thoughts on sin here.  If you get a chance check out his stuff.  Anyone who says:

My conscience has never been clearer, although I think my fundy friends would say that it’s been “seared with a hot iron.” I consider it liberated from guilt theology.

Is a friend worth listening to…

Paid Preachers

I was talking to Watchman today on the way over to TC and the subject of fully supported pastors, missionaries, etc came up.  I told him that I was thinking about writing about this subject.

I don’t think you can honestly support having paid preachers as part of New Testament teaching or pattern for local churches from the New Testament itself.  The main passages used is the “laborer is worthy of his hire” passage from one of Paul’s letters to Timothy and his teachings on his legitimate claim for support from the Corinthian churches in one of his letters to them (1 Corinthians 9).

 This is my defense to those who would examine me. 4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, [1] as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?

8 Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10 Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?

Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

My first reaction to this passage is that Paul is speaking of churches supporting him while he is with them, or to help him pay his expenses in travel.  This would seem fitting and appropriate to me.  My second reaction is that Paul is laying out his right of apostleship here and is saying to them (in effect) that he should have the same treatment as the others (which he didn’t receive).

But, my gut wants me to ask the question: Where did Jesus command that?  Seriously.  I do not remember a single Gospel account where Jesus says to the Apostles, “Oh, and when you get these church started, make sure they are paying you, okay.”  Jesus didn’t appear to be a mooch off of his disciples.  In fact, his disciples left their income to follow him, remember?  Jesus may have been entitled to certain privleges as a Rabai, but I don’t know for sure about that (where’s Rob Bell when I need him on this?).

I guess what I am getting to is that Paul makes these bold statements (“The Lord commanded…”) but I don’t see a reference.  I don’t hear anyone questioning him.  If I was in that audience I would have been asking, “Um, Paul, excuse me, but could you give me chapter and verse for that command please?”  He does this again where he says “As the Lord says, ‘It is better to give than to receive.’ “  He did?  Where?

Not that I’m doubting Jesus wouldn’t say the last statement, but the former just doesn’t seem consistent with his way of life and teaching about last being first – a gospel that destroyed evil constructs of social pyramids that placed one on top of another.

Which is what undoubtedly happens in churches who hire pastors.

So, what do you think?  I want to get the discussion rolling.  Am I missing something?  Do you see Paul’s quote of Jesus’ imaginary command as being legit?  Consistent with the rest of Jesus’ life and teachings?  What about those passages on “paying the preacher” do they really mean that, or looked at in their context are they just poignant reminders of our responsibility to care for one another’s, especially those who were given to minister to us (Ephesians 4:10-16)?

Your thoughts…

M E R C Y (spelled V E N O M)

No mercy for the bad if they want it
No mercy for the bad if they plead
No mercy for the bad if they need it
No mercy from me
Tell no truth and tell no lies
Cross your heart and hope to die
Never give what you can’t take back
Scratch like a cat
Inject your venom
It’ll be your last attack
No mercy for the bad if they want it
No mercy for the bad if they plead
No mercy for the bad if they need it
V-E-N-O-M
Got no heart, no – feel no pain
Take your soul and – leave a stain
Come choose your victim
Take him by surprise
Go in hard and get him
Right between the eyes and -
CHORUS:
Inject the venom
Inject the venom
Inject the venom
Inject it all
(Stick it in, stick it)

Lyrics to AC/DC’s Inject The Venom, For Those About To Rock We Salute You (1981)

300

304 people actually looked at my blog in one day.

Seriously.

Don’t you people have anything better to do!?

Just kidding.  Keep coming by.  Leave a comment, especially if you have a blog of your own out there.  I’d love to check you out…

Pondo Art

 I drew this sketch of our management team at Pondo because Ernie kept calling me “Super-Toby”.  He calls Matt, “Mighty Matt.”  Suddenly the thought hit me to draw us as a superhero team…later I found my sketch had been altered.  Liz #2 and Mercenary decided to make me a little more “true to life” adding some heft to my mid-section and changing my name to “Tubby Toby.”  Nice.

Joe Kubert School of Art Sketches (aka: JKSA Sketches)

My first assignment in the JKSA course is to do a lot of pencil sketching.  I did the Thor one this afternoon as Mallory and Joshua were walking the dogs.  Alaina wanted me to color with her, so I drew this to work on.  Laura has some awesome colored pencil “how-to” books, so I am going to spend several hours doing a nice colored pencil picture (I’ll post the updated picture when I am done, or in stages…)

The barbarian is out of the JKSA book.  Joe Kubert said I needed to copy his work in pencil.

The last one is some sketches of a comic book character named “Blink”.  I can’t draw women very well so I am trying to sketch them as much as possible.

Let me know what you think…

Time flys…

Man, time is flying lately.  The kids are doing the school thing.  Laura and I are greatness.  Work is better, and moving in the right direction.  I’m 1-1 in my fantasy football league (should be 2-0, but that’s another story).  Just when I thought some things were going to be tight, I got some good news in the mail, which was nice (always good to get money).

Now, if I could just find time to blog like I’d want to…

Jay has a great post as a follow-up/furtherance to my Adultary 2.0 post.  Check it out here.  (Just to warn you…watch out for the Muppets…)

Personally, I think Gary should blog more.  BTW, Gary, I WILL get in touch with you, I promise.  Our Timmy days are not over…

Been watching way to much Will & Grace lately.  Always a good show, though.  Always.  I seriously want to post on some of it, but again, I don’t have the time.

I have been learning the Highway to Hell album on guitar (yes, I can say ‘album’).  “Shot Down in Flames” is greatness (it’s my daughter’s fav).  You should hear her play it in the basement on a bar stool…maybe this is shadows of things to come.  Oh, what I might be in for!

I miss Jonathan (Jonathan if you read this, give me a buzz…we need to hook up).

I still want to write about a good many things.  I want to write about Jesus’ resurrection, about alignment changes in Dungeon’s & Dragons, about my family, about Jay’s post on being a Slave VS a Servant , etc…

I also need to post pictures.  I have TONS of pics to post!

Did I mention I am working my way through my Joe Kubert School of Art stuff?  Yeah, I have did a bunch of sketches and am working on a sweet picture of Thor.  I’ll be posting that stuff here soon,too.

Man, the time sure does fly, doesn’t..?

All’s fait in love and…football?

Evidently the Patriots think so…check out this link to read about the claim that their camera men were fixed on the defensive coach’s play calling, reading his plays back to the offense.  Ouch.  But, you know what they say…All’s fait in love and…football?

Dear God,

A letter I wrote as I sat two years ago (08/05 is the date on the scribbled notes on scrap paper) wondering what was wrong, where it went wrong, and how to make it right…

*****

God,

It doesn’t seem to be working.  This prayer deal…I used to know you were there; you used to answer me (or did you?).  Now, I seek, but I am not finding, I knock, but I am not opening, I ask but you are not answering.

I DON’T WANT IT MY WAY! (I do, but I don’t – I want YOU!)

I’m tired of “church”.  I’m tired of people leaving.  I’m tired of this being church.  I hate what it does to my wife – I’m saddened that my kids will go through it.  I don’t feel…I don’t even know anymore…it’s hard to articulate it, really.

Things have changed for me, Jesus.  Maybe you’ve changed them?  I don’t want what I used to want.  I don’t even know if I want to pastor.

I think I run whenever it gets HARD.

I thought I was over that, but maybe I’m not?  Do you know?  Would you tell me?  Don’t tell me life is some cruel joke where at the end of it you find out the truth of it all.  Jesus, I could be an agnostic easily, maybe even an atheist if it wasn’t for you.  Keep me believing!

When it comes to the church thing, I loved the feeling I had when I first walking into Vanderbilt Baptist Church (what seemed like an eternity ago).  It felt like home.  My heart was there.  I wrestled with joining there, but I didn’t know.  I didn’t want to mess up what Corey was doing; get in his way.

But, I cared for the people right away.  They were my kind of people.  I wasn’t their kind of pastor, I don’t think.  Being saved transformed me.  Going to church changed me.  My feelings knew it – I wasn’t me anymore.  ME would have fit right in with these people (remind me, Lord, to tell you about “Me” sometime – it’s a funny story from my childhood!).

(There’s some people in the park walking around taking pictures.  It looks like they are enjoying it – wow, what it would be to be somewhere and enjoy it.  Do they have fears?  Are they worried about tomorrow?  Today?  What do they enjoy it?  How do they put it all aside to be able to enjoy it?)

Anyway, Jesus, I thought I knew what I wanted then, just like I think I know what I want now.  I wanted to do church as I knew it.  Some of it was necessity.  Some things needed to be set in order.  Some things didn’t.  Yeah, I should’ve known something was up when Floyd told me church should be an incoming place, a place for the wounded to come, those who need help and comfort to get it.  I should have listened, cause now I think the same way – I want things to be simpler, easier…right.

Floyd, Lord, had been burned by church…they all have.  Well, obviously there were part of the problems, who isn’t?  But, did they know any better?  Am I naive to think that they majority of people in Vanderbilt Baptist/Community church want Christ and your version of Christianity over “church”?  It seems that’s what excited them so back then: worship, celebration, being together, living the simple life.  What changed?  Did I help change it with my authoritative “this is church!”, “this is commitment!”, “this is how it will be done!”??

I mean, I thought I was right – now, I wouldn’t do that in a million years.

I wouldn’t mind the chance to go back in time.  Can I?  If you can restore the years the locusts have eaten can you send me back in time?  What would I do different?  I don’t know!  Be more like Jesus?  Involve people in discovering/visioneering?  Pray more?  Preach less?  I don’t know if in the end if it would be different (scratch that reques, Lord).

(I feel like I am rambling a bit here – ramble on! – )

What I’m starting to realize is that several things have been going on here:

1.  I’m pushing for my views of how things should be done

2. The first group who were here when I came were settled on how they felt things should be done.  When it changed because of my indecisiveness and the influence of the new group who came after I started pastoring, the first group cried “foul” “our church has changed” “it’s not what it used to be, should be”, etc.

3. The second group influences change and the church evolves into more than me or the first group.  Now that I am (or have) pulled away from the second group, they are crying “foul” “our church has changed” “it’s not what it used to be” “you’ve changed” etc.

Immediately, my mind cries “is this right?” and “if so, what’s missing!?”"

VISION…ultimately what Jesus wants.

So what now, Lord?

Plant?  Re-plant?  Merge?  Who determines VISION!?

Why do I jump ship so easily..?

Church The Way It Should Be

If you were asked “what should a church be?” What would you say? Evidently Joe VonDoloski, pastor of Vanderbilt Community Church in Vanderbilt, Michigan claims to know, and his church advertises it’s goal, it’s mission, to be a “church the way it should be.”

Joe, please take a few moments and comment on what it is you see your church being, and what you think it should be as it grows and goes together.

From the EFCA’s Beacon Magazine in an article entitled “10 Leading Indicators of a Healthy Church” lists “goals for every church” as an indicator for how a church “should be”:

1. Centrality of God’s Word

2. Passionate Spirituality

3. Fruitful Evangelism

4. High-impact Worship

5. Mission/Vision Driven

6. Leadership Development

7. Church Planting

8. Financial Stewardship

9. Intentional Disciplemaking

10. Loving Relationships

From 01/20/07

This was something I found in my drafts from January that I did not post on my blogger blog.  I thought I would share it here, now.  It’s a post entitled “Figuring It All Out” and deals with my thoughts on Christianity, Church and the Core.  It was something I wanted to share publicly then because of some slander about me, but also because I simply wanted to share it.  So take a moment and read it here and let me know your thoughts…

Losing The Faith

Corey over at Transitions has an interesting convo going on about people who have “lost the faith”.  Check it out here.

Newman

This is a picture drawn by a co-worker, Jason Newman. I told him I’d try to help him get some of his art out there. He does great work! Let him know what you think of it here by commenting. Thanks!

A Quicky…

School started this week. Alaina’s starts next week. So, we’ve been busy round here.

Tuesday was one of the worst days of my life (not to mention craziest). I performed the funeral for a 3 month old baby, Lyndsey Marie Covieo. Please keep praying for Nikki & Perry…

I have a pretty big decision to make by Monday, so I’d appreciate your prayers for me as well.

Today is Alaina’s birthday! She turns a whole hand today. I remember when I cold hold her in one of mine.

Been wanting to enter into some discussions on Calvanism and related doctrines lately. I’ve been in contact with some old friends (a family) and they’ve been stoking the fires. More on this soon.

I saw an add in the newspaper for a church in the area who’s “tag line” reads:

“Church The Way It Should Be”

I think I am going to attend this church and do a thorough critique and see if this is so. Actually, on what basis would I do such a critique? Is there a clear cut, “this is how a church should be” book, manual, guide out there? Anyone care to give me some basic things I should look for and if one of them is missing report it…? Who even cares, really?

But, I’ll be writing about that subject as well.

Someone close to me spouse left him recently. My heart aches for him. I’m going to write about that, too.

I am learning two songs on the guitar. “Love Will Keep Us Alive” by the Eagles and “Shot Down In Flames” by AC/DC. Is that song not the best song on the Highway to Hell CD? (If you do not have that CD go buy it – NOW – rock n roll at it’s best right there, brother)

Carrina and I are taking Alaina and Joshua out to eat for Alaina’s birthday. It’ll be the first time we’ve ever done anything together since our divorce. She and I have met once for lunch to talk about the kids, but all four of us haven’t done anything like this. I think Alaina will enjoy it, and I’d like to think that on certain occasions we could do these types of things. We’ll see how things go tonight – it’ll go well, it’s for Alaina…

Speaking of Alaina…she is so cute! She is my little girl. She amazes me and delights me. I can’t believe she’s mine. I love you Munchki-butt!

Big Joe

A couple months ago a customer who called himself, “Big Joe” wanted to speak to a manager about his food.  I was in that section so I stopped by and visited with Big Joe.  Big Joe wasn’t a complainer, but his complaint was justified and when I asked him how I could make it right he said, “Well, Toby, you can make it right by sitting here and talking with me.  Oh, and by bringing me a loaf of your delicious banana nut bread.”

So, I did.

Big Joe and I talked that afternoon about life, divorce, children (he had so much to share about each), and whatever else.  I poured him some coffee, and got myself a cup, and I enjoyed his wisdom, his approach, and his genuine concern for me and knowing me as a human.

He was almost like a grandpa to me as I remember him.

Well, during a busy night one of my co-workers told me someone wanted to speak to me.  It was close to closing time so I was reluctant to go out to the dinning room (honestly, I was behind and I was swamped and at that time I could care less who it was out there!).  As I made my way around the corner, there stood Big Joe.  He smiled his warm smile and asked if I remembered him.

“Of course, how could I forget.”

“I had a feeling you’d be working tonight, Toby.  How’s your kids?”

“Great.”

“Say, I was hoping to buy some bread and sit down with you and catch up a bit while I’m stopping through.”

“You don’t have to buy anything.  Go grab a cup of coffee and sit down and I’ll be out in a sec.”

He did.  I grabbed a cup of coffee, his bread, and my lifted spirits and made my way to visit with him.

We caught up.  He told me he had been thinking about me and everything we talked about.  He told me had been praying for me, too.  He told me that someone made these cool wood things and that he was going to get one for my son.  He told me many things.  He listened to me and my stories.  He congratulated me and wished me luck.

I don’t know.  I guess just the way he spoke.  The hope he gave me.  The wisdom, the love, the compassion, the interest was nice.  It was refreshing.

I can’t wait to see him again.